Talk:Bella Swan and Jacob Black/@comment-99.115.168.197-20130525205402

The quote up top makes no sense my observation of it.

MEYER’S TAKE ON TRUE ROMANTIC LOVE Part One

(Advance apology for errors)

Stephenie Meyer said in an interview:

Bella actually falls in love with Jacob in new moon. It’s understandable why this fact doesn’t occur to her:  Bella has fallen in love only one other time, and it was a very sudden, dramatic, sweep- you- off- your- feet, change- your-world, magical, passionate, all consuming thing (see twilight). She didn’t recognize the much more subtle falling in love, she experienced with Jacob. She was aware only that she preferred being with him over everyone else, that he was constantly on her mind, and that his happiness was essential to her own. She also enjoyed being physically close to him in a way that she didn’t with her other friends. But it took her awhile to add up all the pieces.

And

"Bella's (Flaw) is a lack of self-knowledge; she never would have pursued her friendship with Jacob if she had realized how much more than friendship it really was. You don't give up your friends when you fall in love; however, you do give up your other romantic interests. If Bella had understood herself better, she could have saved everyone a lot of heartbreak. Sometimes that happens when you try to do the right thing

I will write a few thoughts on this interview….

Bella actually falls in love with Jacob in new moon. It’s understandable why this fact doesn’t occur to her:  Bella has fallen in love only one other time, and it was a very sudden, dramatic, sweep- you- off- your- feet, change- your-world, magical, passionate, all consuming thing (see twilight).

So what I hear Meyer saying here is that having only been in love once, Bella does not know how to recognize love. So let me get this straight. When Bella had NEVER experienced love, she was able to know it without doubt when it happened. Was she absolutely right in her assessment of how she felt about Edward? Why yes she was completely right in how she felt. She said she loved Edward and no one or anything would ever change that for her. Does she ever deviate from this? Nope. Nor am I saying anyone has suggested here that she did. However after having experienced love, and to have done so from start to finish of the story with accuracy; readers are asked to believe Bella did not know it when it happened…..again. Why? According to this, the second love was unknown because she had only experienced it once before. So for Meyer, and those who accept this, one can know love without having experienced it ever before and be completely accurate, yet not know love after having experienced love. Oh and when you do figure it out, it comes via a kiss where you have a vision that changes what you have said on some parts of the subject before as to what you always wanted in life. More importantly however, this love will not only be determined real but in all of the time of a kiss, Bella has figured it out completely, knows she wants to be with him and have his children and have him protect her but Edward is still her first choice knowing she will give up all the things she mentions hear she wants. She instantly knows she wants all of this and that she can give them up. Meyer is asking readers to not only believe that but to believe that same person can identify love eventually, and within seconds of its discovery, analyze it to the degree that they know it is real, BUT also know that it is not enough love to counter the already existing love. In order for this to be realistic, and not empty words, Meyer would need to explain how this is possible to readers rather than just announce it as if this is normal behavior for readers that would be readily recognized. We are owed explanation to qualify it as reasonable for the fantasy world she created. Meyer does not do this. She simply tells us to believe it both in the story and in interview and expect not to have it questioned. When reading on a level one, this is acceptable because on that level one only needs to read the words and repeat them. However when reading levels two and three are applied, the reader applies their knowledge both personally and what MORE is provided in the book and if there is not congruency, then the logic is flawed. Yes…even in a fantasy world owned by the writer.

I can not wrap my mind around how anyone can think that happens in life! You know it is love but a lesser love and you know it in minutes if not second of that revelation? No. That is completely unrealistic. More importantly, it does not fit the world Meyer created either.

Yes, we are all capable of loving more than one person and at the same time. We are also capable of loving anyone at anytime of any race, culture or gender. Love has no boundaries. However, love is not something that is stagnant or equal. It is not that you love a person less, but that you love each person differently and when it comes to TRUE romantic love….it ALWAYS grows deeper and richer and it is because of that we are able to have a single romantic love without question. Why? This is the part where Meyer and I separate in her storyline:  TRUE LOVE IS IMPENETRABLE. Nothing seeps into love! She is confusing actions and behaviors with love. (I will speak more to this later)

Um was the love of Edward very sudden?

Maybe, but no more so than what Meyer assigned to Bella and Jacob. In both cases Bella tells ussuddenly  that she is in love. However, readers do see it coming with Edward so if anything it was not sudden with Edward as she states but sudden with Jacob! So Meyer has that account backwards to what she wrote in her story. We watch the relationship build up to love with Edward and Bella and we do not see it coming with Bella and Jacob. Bella is around both characters but only one shows a progression toward that end and it is not Edward who comes out as being all of a sudden for readers if they are honest…it is Jacob. So again Meyer gets her own story wrong.

Dramatic

Hmmm, what happens the day Bella tells us she is in love with Edward?

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">Edward saves Bella’s life, has dinner with her and they talk about who he is on the way to her home where she announces to us she is in love with Edward. Well that is a little bit of drama, I would say.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">Now let’s compare and contrast that to Jacob.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">Victoria is on the way with an army to kill her and Jacob is both off to fight on her behalf and had nearly gotten into a fight with Edward just that morning having spent the night cuddling her in front of Edward as she slept. Then Bella learns he now knows what he never wanted for her was happening…he knows he has lost her…..he lost her not only to a vampire but she would be marrying his enemy. All this despite her not knowing she is supposedly in love with him too. So he lies to gain a kiss by saying cryptically that he could die protecting her. Perhaps it is just me, but when I think of someone possibly placing their life on the line to protect me? Yeah it touches my core of gratitude and does that mean I am in love? No. Could I kiss that person in that moment? Yes. Would it mean I loved them if I enjoyed the kiss? No. Why? Because I have an understanding of love and for me, love is not an emotional response to a situation or the arousal of senses. As the reader, I am aware that Bella is not responding to love, she is responding to both emotions of fear and sensuality. It is a natural instinct to please a person who is about to do something for you and when the act of kindness is one that has such a potentially high cost, most people would respond as Bella does. It is her appreciation for what he is doing for her that would make her kiss him. Take note, Bella does not run into Jacob’s arms upon his return and kisses him. She does not so much of think of it without his prompting. She is at first lost in what he is suggesting but he probes to get her to recall the conditions set and when she does, she grants him his wish. The boy who is about to go lay his life on the line for her. The boy who has been her friend more than anyone she knows in town outside the Cullen’s. The boy who she knows she has left in excruciating pain because she knows he is in love with her and just before leaving to fight to save HER life, he learns that while he is off risking his life for her…she is planning a marriage to his rival….his enemy! All this and what does he asks for? A kiss. I would have not expected her character to do less than kiss him. She loved him! But that is not being in love! Love is neither something that can be forged (as Jacob does here) nor is it in barter (as Bella does here).

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">Now the actual kiss. Bella has been in love with one man:  Edward and the relationship has limitations. These limitations have built up in Bella and she wants more. She just the previous night attempted to have Edward succumb to her desires and he refused. Now here comes Jacob. He kisses her and this is new. Unlike Edward, she does not have those limitations with him. She as she puts it does not need to be ‘careful.’  Bella has moved from mostly closed mouth kisses on to the sensations of various kinds of kisses and <u style="font-size:1em;position:static!important;">that  was something she had NEVER experienced. So we are presented a girl (who is experiencing sensuality and arousal within her body who we are told wants this and has yet to have this satisfied) being kissed in a moment of passion by another guy who she loves (as a friend) and is very comfortable with; and is about to possibly die to save her life. I am not sure what else would we expect from Bella but to have a reaction to the moment. However, for Meyer to have the character say she was in love with him too but not enough? No. Meyer would either need Bella to be MORE in love with Jacob than with Edward in this moment or not in love at all. Meyer can say to me that it was a lesser love. However that is not credible.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">People think they are in love all the time and learn it was not true love. What has been assigned in descriptions to bother Edward and Jacob tells readers all they need know to know which one she really loved and to say that Jacob was loved…TOO, as in being in love with him too is just bad writing! The description of the characters and events simply do not loan themselves to credibility. In other words, we ONLY accept this because there are a few sentences on the pages that say it is so. Nothing more is written anywhere to show it so. Stories should both <u style="font-size:1em;position:static!important;">TELL  readers what is going on and <u style="font-size:1em;position:static!important;">SHOW  us that what they tell us is going on in the story. Show is more important of the two!!!! WE are told Bella is in love with Jacob too and that is all there is. However, no matter how many times it is repeated…if behaviors do not support it…it has no credibility. It is simply bad writing. Meyer lost the battle of this subplot by never allowing readers to have moments in retrospect that could ONLY show signs of love that we readers missed, or future behaviors that showed signs of changed behaviors that told gave us a contrast of the past relationship and the new relationship once she discovered this supposed love. Bella would have needed never to do the things she did before the discovery of love to make the moment credible. By calling Seth to seek updates? No different than sending notes through Charlie at the start of eclipse. By dancing with him and telling him intimate things at her wedding? No different than walks on the beach. By hanging out with him after becoming a vampire? No different than demanding she sees him when she wanted. It does not matter she is married anymore than it did that she was dating. You simply can not say one thing and have the characters not change if you introduce something that should cause a change! We can say Jacob was around for Nessie, but it still does not mean he and Bella are not together all the time as before.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">Now I do not expect all to get this because if you only read the words on the page, this is beyond your comprehension. However, if you understand meanings and your mind creates the story where the images of what is said is not just words but a part of connecting all you know about the story and characters to the next sentence so that they are not words on the page but window into the story, then you can grasp what I am saying. The simplest form of reading is just knowing the words as written. It is when you use those words to bring the story to life that you are able to comprehend that we should be determining not only what is said but does it correspond to all other known’s of the characters positions! Now I know I had a tangent here, but between the day with Edward and the day with Jacob when we learn Bella proclaims love is real…it is Jacob’s whose day’s event show more drama! So again I differ from Meyer.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">sweep- you- off- your- feet,

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">I did not see that at all. Bella was shocked and uncomfortable with Edward at first and it took months as she had determined if he was not going to talk to her then she would not bother with him. I do not know how that can be defined as sweep-you-off-your-feet!

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">change- your-world,

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">I do not know what could possibly be more changing of your world than to learn that you are capable of loving someone other than the man you know you are madly in love with. Thus, this is a significant part of my issue. Edward did indeed change Bella‘s world. Her love for him had nearly driven her insane and she risked her life to save him never looking back thereafter. All the characters around her knew this to be true as well.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">Then we have the Volturi. I am of the impression that vampires senses in their gifts are very keen so when they tell us a love is real…and more potent than much they have known, then I need all of these viewpoints of love to mean something. If you have your character go into the deepest darkest of emotions because she lost love….her needing to have him so  much that she wants hallucinations and does things that could kill her but she does them anyway just to glimpse him? When you have her face a city of vampires knowingly that it will mean possible death and she welcomes it? When you have her decide upon return to join his family? Only to have her say she loves another because she held his hand on occasion and kissed him under the most anxious of circumstances and tell me those are fair comparisons of the characters range for love revelations…oh but not just love but one she already can define as real…..oh but not just define but knows it is lesser? All this as the comparison and contrast to an end of nothing changing? While I totally accept this works for some readers….it will NEVER EVER EVER work for me. (Personally I find it bizarre in how this happens but…it is her story). It seems to me that it is more of a ‘change your world’ to know you love one person completely and find room to be IN love with another, but know it to be lesser…and also to know it immediately. Personally, I honestly do not believe in that possibility. (And that is not the same as saying one can not love two people at the same time)  For me, to so much as be able to accept new love in terms of romantically, the new emotions would need to be at least <u style="font-size:1em;position:static!important;">equal  to what I has already been assigned because the love the character knows by her definition already would set the definition of what should be defined as real love for the story. Anything lesser would mean I should had an experience of some sort that allowed for a readers evaluation of what brought it to bare as a truth for the story. It would NEVER EVER EVER be defined as additional lesser romantic love. A misguided moment? Yes. A moment of confusion? Yes. Tue love? No. The comparison of how the character defines love is far too drastic to have these two storylines balance to a point that it reads as credible. Also, people actually do not have <u style="font-size:1em;position:static!important;">lesser  romantic loves <u style="font-size:1em;position:static!important;">AFTER  they are in love. It defies how God made us. We are designed to Grow in our capacity to love people most definitely, but when we find a person attracts us lesser than the one we are in love with already? That is NEVER being in love. That is MANY different things, but it is not love.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">In reading how plausible this has been for Meyer, I feel I can now see how/why relationships fail so easily/often. It seems from Meyer to many of her readers…love does not distinguish itself enough to know beyond all else. We can find it in all capacities and have it be defined as being in love! Please know I do accept that from all who think that way as their definition. I am ONLY speaking for me and those like me or those who have tried to figure out why they struggle with this. In terms of my beliefs and understandings of how love works? This is only capable in fantasy and even then it is still bad writing if the writer portrays it poorly. Had Meyer created a story line that made it credible for me, I would accept it as a part of the fantasy world she created in the twilight saga. As she did not and presented a lackluster explanation in this interview…I remain adamant that it is a matter of <u style="font-size:1em;position:static!important;">bad  writing.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">You most definitely can be taken by someone who you are not in love with for many reasons, but it would not be true romantic love. So while I do not accept this personally, clearly some do….or they prefer to follow Meyer’s views of how love works. It also means that they adopt her views of love which I would take to be as defined by Mormon teachings on the topic. As I am not Mormon, this probably also plays a role in the difference of how I read her work.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">magical,

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">This is true; however it is true for all true loves. If that is missing it is not love. Had Bella been in love, her ‘joy’ would had not ended with the physical part of kissing. My suspicion is that it is written that way because this is how Meyer personally sees love. Again, our different spiritual values as well as understandings of love would make us differ.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">passionate,

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">I agree Bella’s relationship with Edward is passionate. However, she is passionate with Jacob too. Both worry about her life, but Edward fears his role in her life and Jacob does not.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">all consuming thing (see twilight).

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">To say it is all-consuming and to add see twilight would mean for me that she was all-consumed in twilightwith Edward. If so, for me, it begs the question can one be all consumed and not all consumed? ;-)  Do you see the oxymoron coming right up?

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">She didn’t recognize the much more subtle falling in love, she experienced with Jacob.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">Meyer has just said that Bella has been “all consumed” with Edward since the first book.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">I want to explore that a little to convey the meaning I have of the phrase.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">Synonyms for all:  every, both, every single altogether, completely, entirely, very, wholly, totally everything, the whole thing, the lot, the whole lot, entirety, the whole shebang (informal), the whole kit and caboodle (informal), the whole enchilada (US, slang), the whole ball of wax (US, informal) every one, each and every one, every single one, each every part, the entire, the complete, the whole, every bit

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">So when Meyer describes how Bella feels about Edward starting in the first book, she is telling us after the completion that Bella feelings for Edward was “ALL” of herself. If that is true for her character…then Bella has nothing more she can give as ALL of her in every synonym I have here along with those we could add on, imply nothing more was left in her to give love to another starting from twilight!!!!

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">Synonyms for consuming:  overpowering, overwhelming, intense, overriding, uncontrollable, consuming, unbearable, overshadowing, strong

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">Now maybe this is only for me and those who read as I do…but this description leaves no room for Bella to so much as consider the idea of a second love much less a lesser second love! For Meyer to say her love for Edward is “ALL CONSUMING” it makes it a contradiction to say Bella was ever capable of “true romantic” love for another. PERIOD. In this description, Meyer leaves no room for anything other to EVER exist. It becomes a contradiction of terms. Bad writing of the story or of the interview, but one, the other or both has occurred by her use of this “all-consuming” phrase.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">All consuming means <u style="font-size:1em;position:static!important;">nothing  can penetrate her love for Edward.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5em;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">Now here is the tricky part for me. If Bella is all consumed as Meyer has just informed us, then this has become her standard of romantic love. She can love many people of course but we are talking a being in/romantic love. This for all of us is set by the first experience and in order to recognize it, she would need any other love to be equal or more powerful than what Bella knows love to be. To suggest she would identify this relationship as love and then label it and do so calling it a subtle love, all in a few seconds, and have that be credible ONLY works as credible if your idea of love resigns only in <u style="font-size:1em;position:static!important;">fantasy   if you have a good understanding of what is love. It also works for those simply reading the words on a page and saying because it is written, we do not think beyond that (level one reading skills). Meyer is describing how we should see the relationship based on HER PERSONAL concept of love and it really is not love! It is maybe a spiritual interpretation. Mormons, to my understanding, believe people can love several and at one time practiced doing just that! So her idea of how we love is possibly personal and not just fantasy. This is a depiction of how SHE values romantic love and says so by stating this is how Bella loves. As a personal belief, I do not agree with her at all, but as a story belief, it does not read credible either.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;line-height:18.88888931274414px;font-size:13.333333969116211px;min-height:1em;color:rgb(221,221,221);font-family:'HelveticaNeue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;position:static!important;">My understanding of true love is that no other love could penetrate it on any level much less a second ‘subtle’ love; and with that, so by having Bella’s love be all consuming…the writer leaves herself not so much as the possibility of another love. The ability to ever love in any capacity another romantic love is null and void. It can never exist. It becomes impossibility! Bella can not be both ‘all consumed,’ but have room for more/another. It is an oxymoron of terms.